|
| 3/9/06 |
I wanted this to go in
the "What People Are Saying" section, but couldn't find a link
there. This comment is about the new Unity Proposal. I'm a member of
an ICOC church right now and I think the leaders probably have
mostly good intentions trying to get the churches back into a
"fellowship" of some sort. The problems I saw may have escaped some
people and are based on subtle statements. For example, the writers
casually mention that a number of "mission societies" have been
working on missions since ICOC went through the great awakening. I
don't think anyone really knew that. I've asked alot of my fellow
church members if they had any idea what that was all about and none
of them knew a thing. That really disturbs me because I don't
understand how the churches can be asked to make commitments about
reconnecting when the leaders aren't really telling us everything in
a clear and humble way. To just "throw it out" in this document is
not only unclear, but also looks like an attempt to deceive. When
were these mission societies formed? Who runs them? How much money
do they have? Who has been overseeing them? Are they in any way
connected to the old World Sector Corporations, which we have been
told over and over again by leaders, that they were disbanded.
Anyway, this is quite disturbing. Also, I don't like the way they
refer to "radical independence" and "hyper-autonomy" as though they
had proven what many churches have done to be so somewhere along the
way. I think the reason they use those loaded terms is for
intimidation effect. In other words, if they can't show from the
scriptures that churches are wrong to be autonomous, then the next
best thing is to use loaded terms to "suggest" that it's wrong... in
their opinions, if not necessarily under scripture. I don't like
this because it smacks of manipulation and strongly hints at things
to come. And I for one am sick and tired of all the intimidation and
manipulation we had to endure for so long. Also, this thing about
delegates who make decisions for everyone else sounds just like the
old World Sector leadership and regional leadership groups. It just
sounds like it will be a larger group. And as those groups did
before, it sounds like the regular church members will once again be
ignored and their thoughts, concerns and opinions will have to be
channeled by force through one or two people. But we already have
undeniable evidence that a bunch of men "leaders", whether ministers
or wanna-be ministers, are not any better equipped either
intellectually or spiritually to tell all church members how things
are gonna be.... regardless of what those members know to be right.
I want alot of the things my church had before to remain. But I also
want many more things to disappear forever. Unfortunately, this
document doesn't help me to have alot of faith that the good will
stay and the bad will go. I don't expect perfection. Just some real
honesty, integrity and truth, for a change. One last thing. The
writers say that the "Storm of over." Last I read in my bible, only
Jesus could calm a storm or declare it to be over. Storms do not
cease to exist simply because men declare it to be so. As I see it,
we are still very much at the beginning of this storm. There is
still so much more for God to work out in our churches, among our
leaders, and among many people who have probably taken advantage of
the church and its finances in one way or another. I think the
finances are the achilles heal of our churches. I think that what
remains hidden and unsaid about that is the "sin of Achin." And we
know that God refused to bless the Israelites until they made every
humanly-possible effort to cut out the sin of Achin. I don't think
we've done that yet. (Anonymous), Current |
| 02/13/05 |
I am a former member of
the ICOC that is run by Al Baird and Kip Mckean; it is a cult. I was
a member for 5 years and even a leader. Finances - The church forces
people to give at least 10% of their income, however, the ICOC
always pressures people to give up to 50% of their income to the
ICOC. Spying - the ICOC leaders in every area kept lists of all
sorts of things. ICOC leaders would show up at workplaces, homes,
and other places that disciples would regularly be as a way of
checking up on them. Visitors - Members were required to bring
visitors each and every Sunday; lack of visitors would lead to
entire congregations being punished. Dating and Marriages - Leaders
would make arranged marriages; they would force people to marry or
not marry based on what would benefit the ICOC financially. All
dating and marriages had to be approved. Spirituality/Relationship
with God - Not performing all the works that the ICOC forced upon
disciples was considered losing one's relationship with God. The
ICOC was considered the authority on who in the congregation was
spiritual and who was not spiritual. Special Missions - Disciples
were forced twice a year to give 16-50 times their normal weekly or
monthly contribution; the funds that were collected were never
disclosed; the funds could have gone anywhere. Deceit about finances
- The ICOC lies about the state of its finances. Finances that are
collected from hard working, sacrificing disciples were just given
to leaders; the leaders could use these for any purpose they saw
fit. Leaders lack of sacrifice: 100% of the ICOC leaders live in
luxury. Leaders are not called to sacrifice financially or
materially. Leaders' deceit: 100% of ICOC leaders from house
churches on up lie on a regular basis. Leaders lie about what they
do as church leaders. Leaders lie about what happens to financial
funds. Leaders lie about their dating lives; many leaders are having
sex outside of marriage and the ICOC allows this. Leaders that are
bring visitors and baptizing regularly are allowed to do anything
that they want. The ICOC is 100% cult. People in the ICOC are not
following the Bible; they are following Kip Mckean and Al Baird and
the other ICOC leaders. The ICOC leaders are manipulating people to
get rich and live comfortably. Kip Mckean, Al Baird, and other ICOC
evangelists are delusional; even insane. Thank you, (Anonymous),
Former, San Francisco |
| 02/12/06 |
As most people know by
now, even the ICOC people are eating each other up. Al Baird's
church (the old ICOC) is attacking Kip McKean and his new church
(the new ICOC). And Kip McKean is fighting back. He's even trying to
steal the ICOC name away from Al Baird and his cronies. For example,
the new church he is forming in Phoenix is being named the "Phoenix
International Church of Christ." That's the way ICOC named its
churches in each city. For obvious reasons, alot of ICOC churches
are moving away from being obviously identified with ICOC. For
example the San Francisco International Church of Christ was renamed
Bay Area Christian Church. But that doesn't mean the ICOC is just
gonna role over and let Kip McKean steal the ICOC name. It will be
interesting to see how they progress through that silly battle. On a
related note, I think it's sad to see how some of the old cronies
are falling for Kip's tricks all over again. Case in point... Chris
and Sonja Chloupek. They've gone on record as condemning Al Baird's
ICOC as a bunch of dying churches. In particular, they condemned and
insulted the Phoenix church where they were members. But the tragic
part is that they allowed themselves to be photographed and gave a
story they knew would be prominently displayed on Kip's Portland
Church website and who knows where else. The point is that Kip has
always practiced a religion of martyrdom and performance. Every time
someone did something that boosted is position or self-worth, he
lifted them up on a podium and made them feel like heroes to be
honored, worshipped, imitated and listened to. That's the trick that
the Chloupeks are falling for all over again. Maybe Sonja misses the
spotlight from her days on KNN and sorely wants to reclaim the
notoriety she received from that. Maybe Chris wants to forget the
past after he chose to resign from the ministry in Los Angeles
because he couldn't deal with what he was seeing back them. Anyway,
it looks like the Chloupeks have not learned the lesson that this is
not a game. They don't come closer to God by being made into worldly
heroes. They don't come closer to God by being put in the spotlight
and love-bombed by the likes of Kip. They don't come closer to God
by stroking their egos. It's not that joining Kip's movement was
necessarily wrong. Who knows whether it's worse to be in Al Baird's
church or in Kip Mckean's church. But the Chloupeks should have
refused to be put in the spotlight like that. Or can they point to
an example where Jesus pursued his ministry like that? They should
have simply, quietly and humbly agreed to start a ministry for God
without all the pomp and circumstance. They act hurt and confused by
the "treatment" they got from the Phoenix people. But they don't see
that by going about it the way they have, they played right into
Kip's modus operandi of bad-mouthing anyone who doesn't see things
his way, then trying to steal their church away. And using
unsuspecting "dumb-skulls" to help him with his dirty work. He's
done it before in Louisville, Indiana, Madrid and countless other
places. But Chris and Sonja are not completely to blame. They too
were the victims of many years of ICOC domination and manipulation
of their lives. I think its as simple as realizing that even current
members of Al Baird's ICOC churches may be going through the
feelings of loss and confusion that members who leave the church go
through. As most people who have left the ICOC understand, it's not
easy to figure out where you go after the ICOC. In some ways you
look for a church that has the good things that you had in the ICOC.
Friendships, fellowship, excited dancing and singing during worship.
But on the other hand, you don't want arrogant leaders whose lives
are full of hypocrisy and stubborness raping your soul all over
again. But you never quite find exactly what you "think" you need.
Instead, over time, God leads you to a place where He has divinely
determined you are needed and where your healing will occur. It
won't be a perfect fellowship and it may not involve whooping and
hollering in church as if you are in a pep rally. It may not even
involve the same kind of relationship building that you're used to
in the ICOC. But it will still be God's church and you are still
needed there. You may not know how or why, but of course, it's a
matter of faith. The mistake some former ICOC members make, and the
mistake many current members like the Chloupeks make, is that they
don't mature enough in their own, personal relationship with God to
see that God's kingdom is so much larger, deeper, wonderful and
loving than the kind of church games played in Kip's and Al's world.
They are not spiritually mature enough to see that loving God
shouldn't have to involve insulting other churches in order to do
God's will. They are not spiritually mature enough to see that it's
not even about them or their feelings. And so they fall for the old
tricks all over again. But do they honestly think that Kip's new
church will be much different than Kip's old church. The fact that
Kip calls the Henry Kriete letter the "Great Apostacy" should have
clued the Chloupeks to the fact that Kip doesn't deal in reality. In
other words, Kip's message to the world is "Ignore the pain and
screams of thousands and thousands of people all over the world
who've given countless of years of love, heart and service to the
ICOC over many, many years, including many high-level ministry
leaders. Ignore the fact that most church leaders were prompted by
the HK letter to finally and for the first time admit that it spoke
the truth and publicly apologized for their sins of arrogance, etc.
etc. Forget the fact I, Kip Mckean was personally rebuked by the
world sector leaders and stripped of my position. Forget the fact
that even my own daughter couldn't deal with the "movement" I had
built. Forget all that, it's all an illusion. It's an apostacy.
Instead, do as I say or you'll go to hell." Again, not that the
Chloupek's can be faulted for searching for the true meaning of
"Christ in you." But shame on them for playing the "We're heroes in
Kip's world" game. Shame on them for not having the spiritual
maturity to love those around them instead of running from them.
Shame on them for looking around them and condemning what they
didn't see others doing rather than looking at themselves and seeing
what they're not doing. Shame on them for not doing anything about
their circumstances themselves, but instead running back to Kip and
his promises to make them prominent in his new world. Oh well, as
they say, "even the pig returns to his vomit." (Anonymous),
Current |
| 02/12/06 |
To the self-righteous
Boston member who on 8/12/05 gave his statements on the Johnson's
salary in New York. It's obvious he's not a woman or he would have
immediately realized that if Steve is being compensated $72K/year
and Lisa $20K/year... that's nothing less than gender
discrimination. First icoc claims there's no difference between the
ministry roles except that women don't have authority over men. But
both roles require full-time work, so why should one be worth $72K
and the other $20K if the only real difference is that Steve's a man
and Lisa's a woman? Also, as ministers, the amounts they were paid
as a housing allowance are excluded from their ordinary income. But
those of us in New York, and especially the women who were close to
Lisa, know that the Johnson's, like the vast majority of high
ranking leaders in icoc, claimed up to $40K or more each year for
housing expenses. Add that to the combined $92K, plus the benefits,
plus all the reimbursements, and you get a figure that is obscured
from the church membership. Thanks for giving us a forum to speak
the truth without fear of punishment by our leaders. It's a good
thing you're doing and which the current icoc leaders should review
every now and then. The reason is that if we had this maybe 10 years
ago, perhaps so many icoc church members would have been able to
more positively deal with the hurt and anguish they were suffereing
in icoc. It would have helped the church come to repentence and
change in a more positive and less painful way. But that is now
history and we can only hope our current leaders won't be too
mule-headed to see what's going on here. I'm at least glad that the
Boston church member is on this forum. Despite the fact the he wears
mandatory blinders, I think his contributions are valuable. I'm a
current NYC church member. May God bless us all. (Anonymous),
Current, New York |
| 02/12/06 |
This is to respond to
the Boston church member who obviously works or worked in the Boston
church and thinks he or she knows all about what was going on
throughout ICOC just because he or she thinks what was going on in
Boston. First of all, his or her responses are self-serving as it's
obvious that person is in "insider." Second, his or her input is
intellectually dishonest because that person should know that it's
very easy to hide wrong doing from audits. Third, I understand that
the vast majority of audits that were conducted of ICOC churches
were done by Arthur Andersen, and we all know what that accounting
firm was willing to do for their money. Fourth, that person says
that "reimbursements" should not be counted as compensation because
it merely represents expenses the minister or employee would not
have incurred but for the business. But everyone in ICOC was aware
that ministers and most high-level employees frequently took
themselves and friends out to dinner and entertainment and got
reimbursements for those expenses. They also got reimbursed for
driving almost anywhere even if it had nothing to do with their job.
They got reimbursements for takaing vacations and flying around the
country on personal business. All they had to do was give a short 5
minute spiel at a church service and they could get an entire week
of vacation reimbursed. They sought reimbursements for all books,
supplies and materials they used even if they had nothing to do with
their work. After all, if all you have is a receipt from Staples,
who'se gonna know what was used for what? They sought reimbursements
for most or all of their groceries. All they had to do was invite a
teen or someone else over for dinner and they submitted the entire
grocery bill for reimbursement. They also sought reimbursement for
almost anything else they did with other ministers, employees or
church disciples under the guise of "discipling" or "relationship
building." They got reimbursements for new computers for themselves,
their wives and their children. All they had to do was buy a new one
every once in a while and give their 6-month old ones to their kids.
They got reimbursements for all sorts of furniture they bought even
though ministers are also able to deduct those expenses from income
tax. In other words, ministers and high-level employees were able to
get reimbursements for up to $1500 or more each month for things
that the rest of us had to use after-tax dollars for and not be
reimbursed for. This added an additional $18,000 to their annual
salary, and in some cases like the Johnson's and other more powerful
leaders, the figure was much, much higher. Not to mention all the
perks they often got when the church paid directly for many other
things like HOPE golf tournaments, and their children's involvement
in camps and HOPE youth corps, etc. The ministers and high-level
employees' reimbursements alone amounted to far more that many
church members made annually for their entire families. And the
reimbursements were completely tax free dollars to those people.
This Boston church member is not dealing with reality, or maybe just
doesn't want to admit the truth. But then again, he or she probably
hasn't had the courage to ask or seek to find out what happened to
all the money that was held by the world sectors before they folded.
Was it properly transferred to other churches, or was it stolen by
the outgoing employees? Or a little of both just so no one would get
suspicious? Maybe this Boston church member is even one of those
former employees and is trying to make him or herself believe what
he or she says, so he or she can feel better about things he or she
has done. Does this person really believe that we're so dumb that he
or she could throw out static, technical snippets and have us doubt
what we personally witnessed for so many years? Try again my dear
self-serving insider. No matter what you say, you might fool some
people, but you cannot mock God. New York City church. (Anonymous),
Current, New York |
| 02/12/06 |
Let's think abouth this
very carefully. If the problems in the Roman Catholic church are not
enough to make its members demand wholesale changes in the church.
And if they are not enough to make the clergy leaders repent in sack
cloth and ashes, why should we expect that when all the financial
scandals of the icic are finally exposed that its current members
and leaders will think or act differently? Let's do what we can to
expose the truth for the sake of exposing the truth. In doing that,
I do not think we'll be disappointed. But if we also expect that the
exposed financial scandals will make current members and leaders
think or act differently, I think we're setting ourselves up for
disappointment. The real value of exposing the truth is so we can
finally be and feel vindicated and not have to continue feeling that
maybe we are the ones going crazy. There is no value in expecting
current members to feel that way. If they haven't spoken up and
demanded more accountability after everything that has come to be
known, then they deserve what they get. I'm a former member of the
Triangle church. (Anonymous), Former |
| 02/11/06 |
Every time the ICOC
leaders (evangelists) in the 2 churches I've been a member of are
asked to reveal their salaries, they say that it's "humiliating" to
them to have to do it just for the satisfaction of the curious, the
divisive, the angry and the un-godly. This is their way of cursing
you out for calling them to account for themselves and for their
stewardship as commanded by God. What they really mean is that they
don't like the feeling of humility that comes with opening up their
finances... which is nothing more than what they forced church
members to do all these years. But here's what I think is really
humiliating. When a single mother with two little girls has to work
extra hours at a minimum wage job just to barely make it. When this
mother has to take the bus on cold winter mornings to her girls'
babysitter and another bus back to work, then do it again after
work. When this mother finally had $2,000 in her bank account to buy
a cheap car without a heater, just to make it easier on her kids.
When this mother was guilted out into giving that money to the
special missions contribution or risk being ostracized and made to
feel unspiritual and un-godly if she didn't. When the FAT CATS in
the administrative offices and the ministers in their big fancy
houses with kids in private schools, and their wives who just stayed
at home all the time and forced young girls in the church to cook,
clean and watch their children for them. When these people used that
poor single mother's money to take a fancy trip on a chartered plane
to a Carribean island in the name of "building unity." That, my
friends, is what I think is truly humiliating... to the single
mother and to everyone else who has ever been in the church and has
gone through something like this. This is a true story. It is not
made up. (Anonymous), Current, Atlanta |
| 02/06/06 |
I am a former member of
the Des Moines Church of Christ, affiliated with the International
Churches of Christ (though I have noted that the Des Moines Church
is not generally on lists of affiliated ICOC Churches, it was
considered to be a church planted and supported by the Chicago
Church). With regard to "promises" made about the use to which SMC
funds were to be dedicated, we were told as a congregation that
these monies were to go to the Churches in Russia to assist with
financial need and support. I cannot say this was a problem, only a
statement made by leadership of the Church, namely Russell Denstorff.
I do not recall any statement of urgency about the "millions of
souls" who were going to Hell if we didn't reach them immediately. I
have no information regarding SMC funds being used for non-missions
purposes. I am very much aware of coercion techniques used to twist
the arms of members to give until it hurt, quite literally. As a
leader of single mothers in the Des Moines Church, I was asked to
email or call those for whom I was responsible every day to find out
how much money they had set aside for special missions. These were
single moms, some of whom were living literally hand to mouth. I was
told to tell one woman that when she wrote an amount on a pledge
card and turned it in, even though it was the amount she was
instructed to write there, that she was breaking an oath to God if
she didn't fulfill her "promise". I asked the woman what her
intention was when she filled out the pledge card, and she told me
that she wrote "the amount they told us to write." I asked her if
she thought she could actually come up with that much, and she gave
me an emphatic negative answer. Finally, I stopped contacting "my
women" on a daily basis, knowing their financial situation and the
ridiculousness of the daily phone calls and emails. I told them to
contact my discipler directly when or if they had an update to give.
When one of them did just as I had asked, my discipler contacted me
and told me I should have told this woman that I wanted the
information, not her. The fact of the matter is, I did not want this
information, and I understood these women were doing the best they
could. In closing, this having nothing to do with the questions here
regarding SMC funds: Single mothers in the Des Moines Church of
Christ were treated shamefully in just about every manner
conceivable. They were looked down upon, treated as if they were
some sort of harlet. I would like to remind Kip McKean and others
like him that when Jesus Christ spoke to the woman at the well, He
noted that she had been married five (5) times and that the man she
was living with was not her husband. He did not, however, chastise
her nor look down upon her, but drank from her cup and spoke to her
of Living Water (John 4:1-42). Additionally, I would impress upon
you the scripture that talks of the parts of the Body of Christ,
stating that "the parts that are unpresentable are treated with
special modesty." (1 Corinthians 12:1-31). I find even as I look
this word "modesty" up in the dictionary today that it describes it
as being: "formality and propriety of manner" and "Reserve or
propriety in speech, dress, or behavior." I ask you, did you, Kip,
treat the single moms of the church with formality and propriety of
manner? I think not. Now, speaking as a Woman of God, I say to you,
Kip McKean: Hold high your head and flash your haughty eyes while
you can, for your day of reckoning will come, and all that you took
from those who were so desperate to please God...that and more will
be taken from you. Matthew 25:1-46 31"When the Son of Man comes in
his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in
heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and
he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates
the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and
the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his
right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your
inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the
world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was
thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you
invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and
you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you
hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing
clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and
go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth,
whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you
did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from
me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil
and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I
was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and
you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe
me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They
also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a
stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help
you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not
do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then
they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life." (Anonymous), Former, Des
Moines, Iowa |
| 01/27/06 |
The International
Churches of Christ is a cult of the first order. I was a part of it
for 18 years before all of the craziness was exposed. I was baptized
in the Church in Louisville, KY, and the Boston movement lead by Kip
McKean attacked and destroyed the Louisville Church. Russ Ewell came
and tour apart the church and I was there to witness the stupidity
of what he and Kip Mckean taught. I never wanted to have anything to
do with Kip and his stupid idealogies. I moved to the New York City
church and it was full of more cultish behavior. Steve Johnson did
absolutely nothing to stop the cult-like activity. I was halted from
pursuing my career as a songwriter and singer. These people need to
be sued. Kip and all of his henchmen need to be brought up on
charges. They single handedly destroyed the dreams of so many
people. They forced people to sign contracts giving away their
rights even when they were professional performers in various unions
for performances that are now being used to promote the church's
propaganda. My wife, LB was involved in a production of "Upside
Down" and was not payed for any aspect of this production but was
forced to sign a waiver of all rights regarding this production or
risk being ostracized by the church which was equal to being
ostracized by God himself according to the church. Moreover, both
she and I were involved in a teaching CD called 'Songs of the
Kingdom" and we are not being financially compensated for any of
this, nor did we sign any waiver dealing with such matters, though
this "product" is currently being sold by a website where proceeds
are being sent to HOPE worldwide a charity of the ICOC which we do
not currently support because it is an "arm" of the religious cult
called the ICOC. All of this is a testimony to the lies that these
men propagate. (RC), Former, New York,
NY |
| 01/21/06 |
Hello. Great site. It's
nice to see a serious accumulation of information that can derail
the greatest of all illusions; that the ICC was a religious or
honest enterprise. I would like to offer many comic episodes that I
have done that are related to the issues on your site, that expose
the shenanigans of the ICC. I have been in for 15 years in Boston,
Louisville, New Hampshire. I was kicked out of the church in 2001
for saying "NO" to serving as a volunteer for HOPE Worlwide. The
leaders did not like me saying "NO" to them and sought to discredit
me and if possible, destroy me. My 600 plus comics on the ICC ("My
Evangelist") serve as a record of what it was like to actually be in
the Church, especially in the Boston Church, in the heyday of the
"movement". Many of the issues raised on this site have a comic
strip equivalent. I offer them all for your use at no charge to be
distributed in any way you want since our purpose is the same. To
REVEAL the truth about the ICC ministries and to educate those who
need accurate information to escape its clutches. (SC),
Former |
| 01/17/06 |
what happened to the
400,000 dollar house bought for the chicago evangilist, byron scott?
i saw a picture of it on the internet a few years and then found it
near the corner of wilmette rd and illinois rd in wilmette, illinois.
it is on illinois road. i have a copy of the multi-listing
description of the house when it was offered for sale. i saw a
financial statement recently on the internet for the chicago church,
but it did not list this house as an asset. do they still have it or
was it sold? (PJ), Never Member,
Chicago, IL |
| 01/15/06 |
As a lower level Bible
Talk leader, I was groomed to be a house church leader. The ICOC did
not care what I was doing in my free time as long as I was being
fruitful; baptizing and having lots of studies with potential
disciples. Many of the individuals that I studied the Bible with
were asked to give weekly contribution before they were baptized and
became disciples. I have seen terrible things in the ICOC. I have
seen groups of individuals take one indiviudal into a small room in
order to break that person down and punish that person. I have heard
of evangelists and leaders having sex with females in the
congregation; this was allowed! I have heard of members being locked
in basements, being forced to fast, and even being physically
punished and/or killed. There was a story going around the San
Francisco ICOC about a former member. This female former member was
an activist and provided the local and national media with all kinds
of stories of abuse and financial wrongdoings in the ICOC; this
former member had proof. One day this ex disciple was visited by two
ICOC disciples. The next day the local paper said that this ex
disciple had been killed getting out of her car when the car door
had accidentally closed onher neck and choked her to death. NOW HAS
ANYONE EVER HEARD OF A CAR DOOR CHOKING ANYONE TO DEATH
ACCIDENTALLY?!!!! I think she was killed and/or punished for all her
activism against the ICOC. The ICOC evangelists said that "this is
what can happen to ex ICOC disciples who turn against God; God will
punish them." As a leader I have punished people and been punished.
I even remember the sector leader telling people how health clubs
and gyms are sinful because they have men and women in them who are
not disciples. I remember that all kinds of things were considered
sinful; things that the Bible does not call sin. The ICOC was
worried that if people experience too many good things outside the
church; they would leave the church. Everything in the ICOC was
filtered; information was filtered and congregations were lied to. (EF),
Former, San Francisco, CA |
| 01/08/06 |
Even though we are out
for almost three years, my stomach turned when I saw they actually
kept records of who gave what and when. My husband was unemployed
for an extended amount of time (and unemployment ran out) and our BT
leader came to our house while I was having a yard sale and asked me
how much we were contributing for Special Missions Contribution
coming up. I told him I doubted we would be able to give anything as
we borrowed money to pay the electric bill and telephone for that
month. He suggested I ask a family member to loan me the money, and
not tell them what it was for. When I balked at his suggestion, he
said that my family member gave us money for other things, why
wouldn't we consider asking for the church? I was appalled and asked
if he was suggesting that I lie/deceive my relative into lending me
money so I could turn it over to the church?! He said, "Well, don't
lie, just borrow it without telling them what it is for and pay them
back when you get your income tax return." I was flabberghasted! Of
course, we did no such thing. When I told those in leadership about
his tactics they said he was 'goal-oriented' and 'ambitious for
God.' One of the leaders apologized to me about it and was visibly
upset that the BT leader stooped to such tactics. The other leaders
were indifferent. (FH), Former,
Ridgewood, NJ |
| 12/20/05 |
Misappropriation of
Funds: Church leaders required regions of a church to collect a
specified amount to entities like HOPE during their annual drive. If
the required amount was not met, that money came straight out of the
region contribution. This is not just illegal, but unethical. A
member's money for contribution was supposed to go to the needs of
that specific region or the church at large, not to a volunteer
organization like HOPE. When I was a member, I withdrew my support
for HOPE and opted out of donated or soliciting funds for them
because my conscience was bothered. Yet, as my region failed to meet
it's goal, part of my money went to HOPE. My solution was to stop
giving altogether. This information was slipped to me by someone at
HOPE and they asked my not to mention it because they could get into
trouble. DPI was originally funded by church contribution money.
This came out around the time the HK letter was released through
some questioning. It was paid back and DPI claimed to be the only
"self-supporting" ministry/entity in the kingdom. But the fact is
that it was never truly self-supporting. In the past few years, as
DPI has had financial troubles, the Boston Church had to pay more
than $225,000 to cover their losses from a bank loan. The Boston
Church was a co-signer of the loan, so it's not illegal. But where
did that money come from? Contiributions from members. Members were
never informed that some of their money was going to "save" DPI.
Several years ago in NYC, funds were raised, via special
contributions, to help the African churches. At that same time and a
year later, the productions UpsideDown and Slingshot were done in
hopes to raise even more money. The money used to fund these
projects came from those "special contributions" for Africa.
However, these projects failed to break-even and actually lost
money, a boat load of money. That is illegal and unethical. If you
know any minister who is in NYC mention Konnector to them and they
shudder. They know that more than $3,000,000 were never recovered
for those productions. Still wonder why the books aren't opened? The
ICOC leaders has been involved with MAJOR cover-ups including; child
molestation cases, financial scandals, illegal visas gained for
ministers to get into other countries, etc. We have not even begun
to know the truth of what happened and what is still happening with
monies raised from churches. (Anonymous)
Former |
| 12/14/05 |
I am really not
surprised by what is going on, I have known the ICOC to be corrupt
since 1995. I was once a member of the Greatland Christian Church, (
I would say more like Suckland). I went from Alaska to Rhode Island.
Then I left. I was a starving college student. I had NOTHING. Yet I
was expected to give to the poor. I WAS THE POOR!!!!!!!!!!!!
"..............and they gave according to whom had
need..................." what happened to that. I love the comment ,
further down, to stop being worldly. OH MY GOD, what a whitewashed
tomb. ...........appoint men of little account to deal with such
matters.............. the ICOC CANNOT DO SUCH A THING. That is
something incomprehensible to SO-CALLED leadership. Don't quote
scripture because it is like a man looking in a mirror and walking
away forgetting what he has seen. It something the ICOC could never
put into practice. The men of little account are not good enough. I
know , I was once one of them. The rank and file mean nothing to
leadership until they stop making contribution. I once couldn't get
a leaders attention to settle a dispute. I was told that there were
more important matters for him to deal with. I stopped giving, and
suddenly he had all the time in the world for me. What a joke. As
are many of the other man made rules and regulations burdened to all
in the ICOC. (TO), Former, Anchorage,
Alaska |
| 12/13/05 |
I think we should start
posting the grocery receipts for the current evangelists. I know for
a fact that some are eating steak and a few have actually eaten
lobster in the last year. (Anonymous) |
| 12/5/05 |
It is about time. I have been waiting years for a Lawsuit. I was a member since 1993 til 1998 5 years and was coersed into giving and giving and giving. All members were accounted for and your name was on a piece of paper with how much you are obligated to give and how much you give. So that on Sundays the leaders would meet and give all money that was given on Wednesday evening. If you did not give the whole group of leaders would know about you-and you were told to call the member or go to there house to collect the money to turn in by Sunday evening to the person in charge of turning in the money. If you were short you had to make up for the difference in the next week.. At Sunday service they started a "Benevolent fund" for the poor... in 1998. even within the church members in need for food you could go to the food bank and get canned items--this was a shock for most.. but we know where most of the money went. They would pass around the bowl and you could donate if you could.. but you still felt guilt if you did not give. This is great.. Good luck.,
(Anonymous), CA |
| 12/1/05 |
As a member of the West Region in Los Angeles, I am disheartened by the leadership decision to remove a very capable and honored man (Carl Stromberg)from the RFAC committee (the RFAC was created to advise finacial decisions and close the "distrust gap" between leadership/staff and the congreation). Mr. Stromberg questioned the leaders on their overruling and disregard of the advice offered from the RFAC members. Mr. Stromberg stated that he did not care what the leaders ultimately decicded to do with the finances but he did insist that the leaders own up to their decsions and convey them to the congregation. The leaders found this request to be "divisive" and removed him from the committee. Another very capable man on the RFAC (Raj Malik) discovered that the 5% salary cut that the leaders claimed to have taken, during an evening meeting a year and half ago, had never happened. The leaders claimed it was an oversite by the administrators. They claimed they had no idea the pay cut was not implemented. Curiously, the leaders had been planning a pay hike for themselves during that whole time, this unbeknownst to most of the RFAC members. The raise comes in the name of unity. (The thinking is: If a staff member gets paid more in the Central Region then in the West Region it causes disunity amongst the leaders--so much for discipling on this matter, money seems to be the unanimous unifyer). Mr. Malik gave his resignation to the RFAC committee, he was indignant by the way Mr. Stromberg was treated and he himself refuses to allow his integrity to be compromised by rubber stamping the leader's agendas. Obviously, it would be a matter of time before Mr. Malik would be labeled "divisive" for continuing to give his honest and professioal opinions on RFAC matters. To both of these men I take my hat off--thanks for being men worthy of imitation. Thanks for looking out for the members of our church. We do care!
(Anonymous) Current,
LA |
| 10/27/05 |
Posting the beginning of a response from the Portland ICOC adminstrator from 2002: "Hopefully you don't feel that we are being like pharisses. Our special missions is being devoted to God. It is also used to help others people in many places. You wanted an accounting. Let me try to answer and if you find it is not sufficient then feel free to contact me. But be warned to guard your own heart, it has been and always will come to a resolution of faith put forth in the action of giving. You make a choice of sacrifice like the widow in Mark 12:41 that, unknowing to her, received the praise of Jesus for putting the last two copper coins she had to live on into the temple treasury. What kind of accounting of the temple did she receive before doing this?"(Anonymous)
Former, Portland |
| 10/27/05 |
Here is another response from my former Bible Talk leader regarding my supposed deliquency in weekly contribution. HE ATTACHED TWO EXCEL SPREADSHEETS WITH THE AMOUNT EVERY MEMBER WAS "PLEDGED" TO GIVE. Hey Xxxxxx and Xxxxxxx, bring contribution on sunday to make up. God expects >us to hold to our word and the church needs us to give on a weekly >basis. ? >On a side note, Xxxxxxx , can you call me today if you are free? ? >thanks, Xxxx
(Anonymous) Former, Portland |
| 10/16/05 |
The ICOC tried to recruit me in the mid-80s when I was questioning my relationship with Christ. I didn't join, but was so disgusted and appalled, that I was further distanced from the Church and it is only recently that I have begun to draw near to God in a consistent and meaningful way. Not knowing they were a fringe group, I took their beliefs as representative of mainstream Christianity and decided it held no place for me. The spiritual damage this group has done is incalculable, but they are slippery as eels. I think you are quite right in pursuing their financial improprieties, which can be quantified, and wish you luck. Has your group consulted a forensic accountant (certified fraud examiner)? One might be willing to do some pro bono work.
(Anonymous) Never Member |
| 10/15/05 |
I am hopeful that the full and specific truth about the financial history of the ICOC pre and post Henry will be made public. I know that the idea must frighten many (to open up the books), but it will happen one way or the other. There has been genuine and heartfelt repentance from members and leaders for the last few years. But one thing still remains in the dark (on purpose, I fear) and that is the finances. Even here in Phoenix, I know of a brother that asked for the appropriate froms and it took almost two years. and even then, the document was inconclusive. I'll bet dollars to dougnuts that the majority of the funds were handled just fine, but the rest... who knows. God may be giving the top leaders time to build up the courage and time to open up the books. I just know God does not like secrets wrapped up in 'legal loopholes.'
(JL) Former Member, Tempe, AZ |
| 9/29/05 |
I'm wanna thank the founder and creator of this site for having the balls to create this site to exposed these crooked people! I was unaware of what was going on until a friend was having a meeting with one of the baby leaders about his situation with his son. After the meeting he informed me of a married couple who was living in a shelter had asked the cult for funds for an apartment and they was told that they would have to repay them back. That along with the hyprcosity and favortism I started to see made me leave 3 years ago without any regrets. Learnin' how these so-called leaders were living fancy lifestyles makes my blood boil and I pray that they get exposed to the point where the cult gets shut down permantely. I'm glad the couple in Tennessee filed the suit and I hope they win Those who left, there is life after the cult Enjoy it and do you Like Mariah Carey says in her hit "It's Like That" Dem chickens are ash and I'm Lotion
(Anonymous), Former Member, New York |
| 9/8/05 |
I love the work done at this website. It is just right. This church has always been full of crap. They lie when they talk about changes. When I left officially at the beginning of the year I was marked by my ex girlfriend's brother. He wouldn't let me talk to my ex girlfriend because he feared I would tell the truth to her and she might start questioning the church as well. He said we couldn't be friends anymore either. How can you justify that from the Bible???? How can you do that and claim to have the love of Jesus??? WHAT
HYPROCITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (KW), Former
Member, Los Angeles |
| 9/8/05 |
I think you're doing a great job informing us of up-to-date info. Thanks alot and keep up the good work!
(LK), Former Member, New Haven, CT |
| 9/7/05 |
Stop being Worldly!!! 1 Corinthinas 6:1-8: 'If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another-- and this in front of unbelievers! The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.'
(DM), Current Member, Portland |
| 9/4/05 |
I was in the church for 13 years (three separate congregations) and the evangelist in each city always lived in the best house in the church, the salaries of couples exceeded $120,000, they used church members as their maid service (they didn't "force" you but you didn't want to get on their bad side.) And in Toronto when they laid off leaders they gave them a years severance. After seven years in a secular job I was lucky to get two months. I don't know if there was flagrant robbing the till but the church was obsessed with money, they didn't seem to mind harassing single moms who made $8/hour for their contribution, all the while going off for "ministry retreats" in such places as South Africa and the Dominican Republic. The church was drowning in ego and greed and seemed to encourage sycophancy and narcissism. If heaven is full of ICOC bullies and tyrants I don't want to be there.
(PF), Former Member |
| 8/24/05 |
I commend you on this site. I am reading all the current members little tiffs, ohhh please stop talking about us, do somethign else, your info is outdated, wahhhhhhh wahhhhhhh wahhhhhhhhhh It makes me laugh. Keep up the good work
and to all the haters, you're the ones who need to get lives you assclowns. You sit around making claims of change, yet your congregations won't publicly oppose McKean because he rules you all, even if you don't know it. Go to your leaders and ask them and make them tell the truth. Get your lips off your leader's asses (hi Tim) and grow up already.
(Anonymous), Former Member, CA |
| 8/18/05 |
The
ICOC churches were audited annually by reputuable firms. All
compensations and use of contributions were examined exhaustively
and the churches received a clean audit each year with no signs or
even questions of financial impropriety. As you repent, may
the God of Heaven and earth forgive you for the doubt that you put
in the minds of believers and nonbelievers alike. (Anonymous),
Athens, GA |
| 8/12/05 |
An
audit tests whether GAAP is being followed in the course of the
church's accounting. If the audit report states that the
church's financials present fairly, then at least we know that the
church is accounting properly the items that are being processed.
(Anonymous), Current Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
Regarding
your recording of Connie Beane... if I received a call like that
and I worked at McDonald's and they wanted information, I wouldn't
give it to them either... what a moron... also, I thinks it's
unfair to have taped Connie without her knowing it... (Anonymous),
Current Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
In
any large, global organization, the parent company (headquarters)
requires some level of operations support. The ICOC office
provided services to all of the churches in the ICOC such as
benefits & retirement plan administration, legal services,
policy development and support, KNN, etc... these services benefit
all of the churches. (Anonymous), Current
Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
I'm
glad to learn that we supported HOPE. In order to support
the projects that HOPE was pursuing, more than just the member's
fund raising efforts would be required. I don't see anything
wrong with a group of churches supporting an effort such as HOPE
in this fashion. (Anonymous), Current
Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
I
don't know if it is illegal, but our church culture in general is
not one that would require the ministers to disclose their
salaries. Besides, the ministers weren't even responsible
for setting their own salaries. As for me, I wouldn't like
anyone knowing what I make either. ... this website appears
to be willing to take any piece of information and interpret it in
as bad a light as possible. I don't think your arguments are
very convincing. (Anonymous), Current
Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
After
reviewing the NY compensation print out, I was encouraged to see
that Steve Johnson was making only 72K per year and Lisa was
making 20K year. For a couple leading the size church that
they were and in that region of the country, I'm surprised it
wasn't more. The benefits line comprises both health
benefits, life insurance, disability and retirement. Again
not bad... the reimbursement should not be counted in
compensation, because it is merely a reimbursement of expenses
incurred on behalf of the business, and would not have been
incurred otherwise. Given the insecurity of the ministry
position, the fact that these men and women sacrifice their
careers to go into the ministry, and that there is very little
transfer of skilss from a ministry job to other careers, we should
pay them more and require them to get professional couseling
degrees in order that, if they want to change their job, they
would at least have some credentials other than just church
employment. (Anonymous), Current Member, Boston |
| 8/12/05 |
You
must have something better to do with your time... smell the roses
today... (Anonymous), Current Member, Boston |
| 8/5/05 |
While
serving as a Bible Talk leader during the 1997-2000 time period,
we were routinely told at leaders' meetings to go and collect any
contribution that had not been turned in at the Sunday service
that day. We were expected to go to the home of the member
who had (for whatever reason) not given their contribution,
collect it from them, and deliver it to the region administrator.
We were also told that it was because of our poor leadership that
people in our ministries did not give. I can also remember
instances where the hat would be passed at leaders' meetings and
we were expected to give money to make up for contribution that
was not given that day. Again, we were told that, had it not
been for our poor leadership, we would not have to pass the hat
like this. (TS), Current Member, Fort Worth, TX |
| 8/4/05 |
May
God bless your efforts on this site! I've nothing of any new
import to post as the lies about the total purposes of our Regular
and yearly Hope collections has been mentioned already on the
general icoc, delphi discussion forum. We too, in London
were always given a pep talk just before the regular collection
for Hope. At the annual churchwide (as differing from the
regular sector collections) we were always told how , unlike other
charities, 100% of our collections went to the poor due to having
loads of volunteer administrators/clerical staff. When the
various UK churches and church sectors were finally given some
real info on where monies had really gone we were told that,
actually, every year for as anyone could remember, a certain
percentage had always gone to the US for 'admin purposes etc'.
This was certainly news to most of the members as you can imagine
and in direct contradiction to what we had always been told.
The ICOC leaders were and mostly still are 'an accursed brood',
expert liars and lovers of self and lovers of money. It
galls me to know that so many still choose to not think too deeply
and stay in such a corrupt organisation. May God answer our
prayers and destroy the ICOC asap. By the way, i was a
member for nearly 13 years and left in the summer of 2003.
Still struggling to come to terms with my own brainwashed, too
trusting self and how i trounced my conscience so often for so
many years so i could 'still believe'. I am now very
questioning about what i choose to believe as i should always have
been according to the Bible 'test everything and hold onto the
good' as it says in 1 John somewhere! God speed to all
involved in true investigation and denunciation of lies still
being told to so many. God will have his day in court, so to
speak, whether the FBI or your own investigations are able to
prove what so many already know about the moral, financial and
leadership sins and abuses of the ICOC. Have chosen to be
anonymous because i suspect the ICOC types would only start
slandering my name all over the place if i gave my name. I
suspect they've already done so to some extent, but i've got
enough on my plate without those abusers and liars making my life
any more difficult than they already have. xx (Anonymous),
Former Member, London |
| 8/3/05 |
"I was so grateful to see this website. My
husband and I were former members for over 14 years and have been
gone from the ICOC for two years. I have prayed for justice to
take it's course and I believe that in time, it will. Thanks to
this website, it appears that someone has been working hard to
bring truth and justice back to those that strove to do so. I
needed to move away and start fresh and wanted to expose somehow
the fraud of the church. We are so free and happy that we left
when we did. My husband was on the transition team in
Rockland County, NY that tried so hard to expose what was going on
and he and other men were shut down when they got too close...We
lived two miles from Steve Johnson, Steve Kinnard, Lin Beaty, etc.
Our children were raised around their children and we were asked
to move out of NYC and start a church outside the city near Steve
Johnson. It's surreal to look back now and see how very
wrong everything went. It is also refreshing to see that the truth
will set one free. We were unpaid leaders for many years.
Thank you for your hard work" (NB), Former
Member, Rockland, NY |
| 7/29/05 |
Thank
you for your efforts with this website! I have often thought
that it would be great if someone could assemble "the
evidence" against these scammers. (JS), Former
Member,
Granby, CT |
| 7/29/05 |
I
think you have done a fair and accurate website on the ICC.
I appreciate your work and effort on making this information
available to the general public and to assist ex members
understand the manipulation that was being dont to them.
Keep it Real! (LK), Former Member, East Haven, CT |
| 7/28/05 |
Alot
of the info you have is outdated. For example, the info on the
leaders. Just wondering why you post old info instead of current
updated stuff. Also on some things it looksl ike you just
posted copies of webpages, with no addiitonal info. Did you
get permission to use other people's websites on yours? Please
post the answer to this publicly as several of us have been
interested in this. One of the websites you pasted under one
of the former leaders is a copyrighted website. Was permission
given to you for this? Please advise. Thanks, (NW) |
| 7/27/05 |
In
March of 2003 I met with Kathy Criete, Edie Francis and Odessa
Merrigan at the Orlando Church office. I wanted to get some
answers as to how the Orlando's Church staff was compensated. KC
told me that she could not give me the salary model because it is
property of the ICC. In other words as she herself confirmed it
would be a copyright infringement if she made that available to
me.
All that she was able to provide was a "median"
salary figure wich was about $38k. I asked her if she could give
me the lowest and the highest salary figures and she said she
could not.
She shared the generic factors like "responsability,
family size, expense accounts ($1,000 amonth per person at that
time), mortgage, health insurance, retirement plan etc...
Since I had been researching in the ICC Delphi forum I was
already aware that the lead ministry couples were being paid
salaries individually.
At the end of the meeting I told Eddie Francis that from my
research I gathered that the lead ministry couple were making
$90-100k and asked him if he could confirm that. He said
"Yes", Then I opened the bible to Eph 5:3 where it talks
about not being even a "hint" of greed among God's
people. He had no answer. (Freddy Gomez) Former
Member, Orlando |
| 7/26/05 |
I
was an active member of the pittsburgh c.o.c. nearly a decade
ago.I've never wanted to talk about it, think about it or
acknowledge that I got "absorbed" in to it.
I knew some of the docturnal dillemas I was having were
legiitimate but even in the best of churches there are differences
in interpertation. My conviction was simply that if I was having
difficulty it must be my fault. It wasn't till increased pressure
to evangelize and bring a friend to church.
suddenly my only
relevance was how many phone numbers did you get? did you
do 3 hrs of witnessing ?why aren't you spending more time on
campus? This to me is not christianity. it recrutment. there is no
doctrin in the NT that perscribes to the Idea that door to door
solicitation is a vital function of christ's ministry. christ was
a fisher of men that dosen't mean he conciously stalked them
harassed them and hunted them down till they came to synagog on
sunday.I don't think he asked for 10% + a 10% annual love
offering. and I also don't recall him rebuking the apostels for
not bring 3 friends or recruiting
by playing volley-ball on campus to attract"hopefuls".
ICC is a perfect 10 on the cult-o-meter. I to this day will
not acknowledge an active Inter.Church of Christ Yuppie. or ICCY
prononced " Ick-key" and though I 've desparatly
wanted to slap a few of them and say" Wake up and smell the
wacko" I was just gratful to exit without a phyical
confontation.to tell a member
that ICC is a cult is a challenge not just to the
world they've seized with a robust enthusiasium and zeal for doing
Gods work I The stigma of that statment
identifys them as fools who's mind body and soul has been
manipulated and parleyed into a condition of total mind-less
submission ."meant of course to serve the lord "but
still perverted to a state of absolute submission to a cultic
hiarchy and twisted dogma.
I believe whole heartedly that a campus-based recriuting
scheme affords the ICC a pshyological advantage that seems to have
been over-looked by its retractors. Beyond the away from home for
the first time syndrome many ,many of the people recruited on
campus seem to reject the idea that they could be duped or that
there superior intellectual facilties were capable of being simply
out smarted by a tried and true system of stimulus, manipulation
and there own desire to be worthy in the eyes of God..
Egotistical blind ambition..and cults (Anonymous), Former
Member, Pittsburgh
|
| 7/24/05 |
I
heard the tapes and it is out-right embarrasing. Man how
stupid and ignorant I was then. But in short, my own opinon,
either the administration people in the church office was lying
and committing fraud or they were being puppets for the people who
were really in charge; also,they really didn't know the
information to what they were being asked and how to get; and if
they tried to get it, they didn't know where to start (especially
the receptionist, I can tell she didn't have a clue). But I
think that a small part of me say fraud, but the most part of me
say they didn't know what they they were doing; they didn't have
the correct or proper equiptment to keep up the statis and all the
numbers; they didn't have the right people in place; (just because
someone spiritual or seen spiritual don't mean they know what they
are doing) and bla bla bla... I'm still a member of the
church here in Atlanta, since 1994. I'm ready to take a
stand for what is wrong, not only outside of me (the church, sin
of others), but be indignant about the sin in my own life. I
for give them. Now I must repent and call others to rerpent.
(PL), Current Member, Atlanta |
| 7/21/05 |
great
website. i read the section that adresses the duplicity of the
ICOC and Hope. i know that when i was a member, i had been asked
not to mention the ICOC for fear of "getting HOPE in some
trouble." is there something that we can do to stop the
deceitfulness such as talking to the IRS or some other entity?
thanks. keep up the great work. (LC), Former
Member, Los Angeles |
| 7/11/05 |
I
just hope these people will be forced to pay for the damages that
they caused, both financially and mentally. Great job on the web
site. (Anonymous), Former Member, Philadelphia
|
| 7/11/05 |
sad
(Anonymous), Current Member |
| 7/5/05 |
It
amazes me to listen to the audio between the ACES office and
Ranffis Larios. I ordered the ACES 1023 from the IRS and was
quite disturbed by what I saw. According to the form, the
Johnsons and Connie were getting total compensation in the double
six figures. The church administrator in Charlotte kept
referring me to Connie Beene to get any additional questions
answered. He stated that the numbers originally
reported to the IRS were incorrect. If you are interested, I
have a copy of the e-mail chain between myself and the Charlotte
Church administrator. Just let me know. (NJ), Former
Member, Charlotte |
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